No. You aren't obligated to. Respect is earned, and not a given.
This comment was only meant to understand why people act like this, not telling people that they can't handle the situation how they want to. Be as disrespectful as you want.
"Be as disrespectful as you want."
No need to get so defensive, I just asked a simple question.
But if that's what your point is, so be it. But I still disagree that vegans become ferocious simply because they're ignored. If you want to want to know why I can tell you, otherwise you may ignore this comment if you feel like you do not want to continue on talking when your original comment was made 6 months ago.
It... wasn't really meant to be defensive, sorry if it sounded that way.
No, that's not the only reason. There are indeed other reasons, but let me hear what you have to say first.
First, I'm going to sorta debunk the popular reasons why vegans become what they are, and think so highly of themselves because of that.
(I might say "you" a lot here, but keep in mind that actually does not necessarily apply to you, as the individual I am replying to right now. )
To stop climate change
As you know, beef is a major product in the meat industry. To satisfy the world's costumers, we cram a lot of cows into our factories, but before that, we get them all breedin' for more cows to harvest beef. You may heard that cows expel a lot of methane gas, and that, is a greenhouse gas. Lambs, goats, and bisons also expel a lot of methane from their bodies as well.
But then, there are pigs, chickens, and fish that aren't as harmful to the environment as the other guys, yet they're still major meat products.
So then...Why can't you just limit yourself to eating pigs, chickens and fish instead of becoming vegan?
Other than that, there's more to helping our earth than changing our diet. It takes only a google search to have this cute, but helpful guide as one of the first results on guiding you to be more eco-friendly. It even said "going green" doesn't have to be a daunting task that means sweeping life changes. Becoming vegan overnight isn't one of them.
So if someone thinks or advocates that going vegan is for everybody, including people who are B12-deficient, allergic to many kinds of vegetables/fruits, faithful in their religious beliefs, then they are either very ignorant or an obnoxious person willing to convert people to veganism when there really is no need to.
To be healthy
If you think that a vegan life style is going to be healthy...Mmm, I'm going to disagree. But hey, to each and their own. But to shove it down my throat, get hit.
There are probably many articles on the internet right now, biased or non-biased, either complimenting or disapproving the vegan lifestyle. A google search of either "Why veganism is healthy", or "Why veganism is unhealthy", and...BAM! You get all the resources you want to know about! So which one do you pick? Which side will you follow? Which one will be the healthiest for you? It all, depends, on the individual. Because healthy eating is not just a single path, believe it or not. As always, everybody is different with their bodies, and of course, there are articles comparing the pros and cons of veganism as well. "Pros and cons of becoming vegan". Google it, you got it, decide on it.
Want to lose weight, but keep the proteins? Go vegetarian, or vegan! (Many bodybuilders are actually vegan because they do not want to risk getting fat from meat)
Want to gain some extra nutrients for your health? Eat anything that's edible, including the animal products!
To stop the inhumane treatment of animals
This is a tricky one, because any non-organic meat produce in my supermarket has a chance of it coming from a crammed and uncomfortable meat factory and farm, meaning that the animal had to suffer from life to death just for a place in the supermarket, for an ending up in my bowl. I did say chance. Because there are actually good and bad factory farms out there.
So anyways, how can we support, or create a humane way of animal farming? (and not just assume that this piece of meat could've came from a better factory farm)
1) Buy your meat from the nearest farmer's market, especially if you live near one. Those farmers take great care of the animals, and the ones that own cattles let them run free in a grassy area for them to graze, because cattle are meant to eat grass, and not soy. Soy makes the cattle's stomach unusually acidic, and it makes them produce a lot of E. coli in order for them to handle all that soy, which means that grass-fed cattles have a less likely chance of getting contaminated. Plus, it's also organic! Some people may complain that it costs too much time and money to buy that, but in the end, it is worth it to support hard working farmers who produce their goods wholeheartedly, while getting your organic, properly cared for plants and animals for consumption.
2) Create an urban farm. Again, another great way to grow and harvest your own organics, and maybe set up a little hen pen in your backyard for poultry or eggs. Since you take care of your chickens, you decide how they're going to be raised and treated.
"But becoming vegan is soo much easier than buying from a farmer's market or making an urban farm!"
Uhh, that is your opinion, but I personally don't think so.
Most things in our supermarket are genetically modified for our convenience, this includes hiding animal products in foods that we don't necessarily see to be harmful to animals. So how do I avoid that? Of course I need to read labels of every processed food I buy. And if it turns out that most of my favorites contain butter...Welp. Time to throw the snacks and sweet bread away.
Also, genetically modified tomatoes have some fish genes implemented to act like a pesticide, or to increase their tolerance to frost. (Anti-freeze gene from the winter flounder) Not even a tomato is safe from having parts of an animal!
If anything, being a non-hypocritical vegan would probably be just as hard, if not require even more responsibility than just going to a farmer's market to buy meat or raising your own meat.
To make sure that no animal dies for me
This is totally opinion-based, and even though it looks more like a vegetarian point of view, many vegans still use this.
You can't eat your meat, and have it too. So what? Predator>Prey
"But hoomans have morals and shuld be able to undrstand tht animals dun want to die!!"
Assuming that every single human should have the same moral as you, veganazi.
Feeling bad for the animal that was killed for you is one thing, but demonizing everyone who enjoys the consumption of animal products is another.
First off, humans are still a part of nature. Meaning, we are able to be predators when we want to, and are able to, and we use our brains to figure out how to make our food supply sustainable. Homo sapiens are omnivorous, no matter how dense a vegan's beliefs try to convince people otherwise when the truth is so blatantly obvious.
Secondly, humans do have a conscience, but everybody's conscience is not always the same. And to force someone into believing in your morals is simply forcing your opinions down their throats, not facts.
And lastly...Exactly how important is a cattle or a chicken's life to you? You let a cattle free. And what they going to do? Just eat, sleep, shit, fart methane, and breed with another cattle to make another cattle, to do the exact same thing.
You let a chicken free. And what are they going to do? Eat, sleep, shit, breed with another chicken, to make another chicken, to do the exact same thing.
But hoomans do the exact same thing!!!
I don't know about you, but...No.
A human can grow up and learn to be a medic for its own species.
A human can grow up to create amazing artworks to deliver a message, or just for entertainment.
A human can grow up to become a leader of over millions of people.
And of course, a human can grow up to become a false tree-hugging vegan.
I could go on forever providing examples.
Can another, single species do all these things? No. Almost any animal with a much simpler brain than a human's simply has to go through the exact life style. The goal of their species is to just propagate more of themselves... The ultimate goal of humans is still unknown. Some people say that there's none, or it varies.
But...hey...If a vegan finds more excitement in watching a bird lay its egg than a trustworthy scientist creating a miracle drug of eradicating ebola, so be it.
Veganism is just one of the many solutions to a bigger problem. And by looking at the diversity our species, veganism is universally a choice rather than a requirement. Therefore, forcing people to become vegan just because they're ignored is:
•Shows that the vegan doesn't actually care about the world problems, they just want people to become vegan
•Childish; You just can't stand the fact that there are different people in the world
•Making your group of people not only to be taken less seriously, but more and more hated upon (When you're already the minority, treating the majority like shit is walking on thin ice.)
So, anytime a vegan spews their "intimidating" idiocy, this is all the nonesense I hear: "The only way to go to heaven is to become a vegan."
Or this: "Worship me because being vegan automatically makes me a higher person."
I'm sorry for making it so long, but you asked me to tell you my point of view, and the way I think I can make you understand it as much as possible is to provide every bit of information behind my words, sweeping away any possible future questions that may already be answered here.
Thanks for the extensive response, I guess I shall respond to each point individually, I'm not sure if you enjoy exchanging long posts but I'm content with it. Some of the things I talk about delve into philosophy.
To stop climate change
While climate change is important, it's not the only thing that affects the environment, so I will be touching on some things that may be slightly unrelated to climate change.
-How a person helps the environment is completely up to them, I agree. As long as they aren't completely ignorant about all the things that the meat industry has caused and inflicted on the environment, then there is no problem.
However, methane is not the only problem when dealing with the environmental impacts of the meat industry.
Pigs and chicken particularly often have their waste dumped directly into bays and harbors, contaminating all the surrounding water, causing severe algal blooms that suffocate fish that are crucial to ecosystems. In America, this is because the clean water act of 1972 excluded agricultural waste, so there aren't enough restrictions to prevent the factories from doing this.
Fish, depending on where they are retrieved, is another story. Industrial fish farms, just like regular factory farms, pollute the surroundings. They aren't environmentally better either because to feed the fish, smaller fish are sometimes caught directly out of the ocean to feed them. It might be a slightly better alternative, but really not that much better.
And what's the deal with fishing? Quite a lot:
Trawling. Although highly regulated in some places, other nations slip through the cracks. Trawling is a commonly used method of fishing that involves using a very large net that drags along the bottom of the ocean. The reasons why this is very harmful because of the following reasons:
-The nets damage the natural formations and ecosystems on the bottom of the ocean that sustain the populations. These damages are devastating, taking many generations of aquatic life to heal. Trawling damages our already dying coral reefs, as well.
-The nets are non-discriminatory about what they capture. Many fish species, some very crucial to the environment, are being driven to extinction because of accidental by-catch. Some fishermen have made an effort to create specialized nets that allow smaller fish that are unneeded to slip through the holes, but unfortunately, that isn't the majority of fishermen. By-catch sometimes includes marine mammals as well, including dolphins and porpoises.
On the note of B-12 deficiency, most people are deficient of it, not just vegans. Most people should be supplementing it, otherwise it can cause neurological damage and even the rotting of the spinal chord. B-12 is found in soil and bodies of water, as well as microorganism that live in and on animals. Eating organic food and not washing the heck out of it can help. Our population is deficient in B-12, I presume, because many people turn to very artificial foods for nutrients and forget that some "unclean" sources of nutrition are important.
To stop inhumane treatment of animals
-I agree with most of what you've said here. Morality is subjective, and I say, if someone even really cares enough to change the smallest thing about how they treat an animal, they already care a lot more than most people do. I'm not a competitionist like most people are. My goal as a vegan is to lessen suffering in any way I can, but eliminating it is not possible simply because of our nature as humans.
Many people who want to define veganism say that it is more than just a diet, but in my opinion, it shouldn't be. It really is just a diet. To say it is any more than that universally is PETA-esq, and they are horribly hypocritical.
-What is "easy" is also subjective, I agree. For me, being vegan is easier than buying somewhat ethical meat from farmers markets because meat from reliable sources is just one more expense that is not subsidized by the government. It's less expensive to simply focus on the fundamentals of my diet.
yeah, and about the tomato thing, there's also shellac, a substance that is sprayed on the surface of bananas to preserve their freshness. It's made of crustacean's shells crushed together. I'm not sure if it's just a byproduct, but there's that too I guess.
preventing animal deaths
This is an aspect of the vegan and vegetarian community that I tend to dislike just as much as you do.
Personally I am more concerned about the suffering the animal has to go through and the amount of suffering raising said animal produces rather than whether or not it dies.
From the whole omnivore versus herbivore perspective, my personal opinion on the subject (as studies on the matter seem to have conflicting conclusions,) It seems that humans are primarily herbivorous with slight omnivorous tendencies, we seem to be adapted for eating insects more than anything else. Because of our adaptability, we have been able to sustain ourselves on meat in order to travel great lengths into climates that normally wouldn't sustain us. The ideal human diet would probably include meat if we were hunter gatherers again, but depending on the environment.
From an ethical standpoint, it makes a lot more sense that we would eat bugs for a main source of protein because most people feel little empathy for insects, similarly to how a carnivore feels no remorse for its prey. However, in many cultures, livestock that is commonly raised for meat consumption are kept as companions or pets. How much empathy or caring a person feels towards a certain animal usually has to do with societal conditioning and how many positive memories that person has whilst interacting with that animal, which would explain why not many people feel so much caring for cows, pigs and chickens, as apposed to animals like horses, dogs, or exotic birds. All those animals have similar abilities in terms of intelligence and capacity for caring, and yet, we treat them differently because of how little we have experienced with them outside of the grocery store and our dinner plates.
Personally, I find all creature's lives to be equally important. But not from a mushy-gushy prospective. It's not about what they can provide for me emotionally, it's just about looking at the big picture. Humans are just as selfish as most animals. While we are social creatures with high capacity for empathy, empathy is just another survival tactic for self preservation. After all, if we didn't care for each other, where would we be? This is how I see our relations with the animal world as well. I don't hold other animals to the same expectations as I do with humans, animals don't have to intelligent, perceptive, or even attractive for me to have a slight appreciation for them. Using our ability to care about other species, it might be the only way we could turn our act around, because if we treat the environment better, it will ensure our survival as well. It's a mutual exchange.
Humans do all of those things you mention because we have to, it's how we survive and thrive.
It doesn't make us any better or worse.
Other animals do things that are beyond our understanding in the same way that art, philosophy and science are beyond their understandings.
It's how they have adapted. We evolved to become social, cooperative creatures, and the worm evolved to be a simple yet resilient life form. Does that make it inferior? No. It's species is still alive, isn't it? And I'm sure the worms will still be alive by the time we are gone, too.
Would it benefit that worm's survival if it knew how to create art? As it is, probably not, it would just be a waste of time.
For us however? Definitely, depression and loneliness are common human problems and with art, we lengthen our lifespans that are occasionally littered with mental illness and dysfunction. Art is a safety net for our fragile and complex minds.
To judge an organism's worth based on human standards is one way of doing things, but that becomes problematic when we must learn to work cooperatively. Aka, through sustaining ecosystems. If we only cared about other species like ourselves, that would mean that the world would be over saturated with creatures competing for all the same resources. We would die out swiftly.
In response to your TL;DR
It is indeed a solution to a fairly large problem, and it's not going to solve all things, but it has the potential to solve a lot of them. I'm not going to judge another person for choosing a different way to solve these problems, as long as I see that it works, then great. Nobody can force people to become vegan.
People do use veganism as a way to feel superior to others sometimes. Other vegans even do it to each other, it's honestly pretty horrible. For that reason, I tend to dislike most other vegans I meet. However, I find a lot of people who lead mostly vegan lifestyles without even labeling themselves as vegans anyway, and they tend to be fairly pleasant. the label itself just attracts a lot of negativity.
The people who practice veganism sometimes can be childish. As I said in my original comment, bad behavior always comes from a root source, and it's not because of veganism itself. It's because the person just has issues. Veganism just turns into the platform that they use to spread their bitterness and hate. You seem to have made the connection between pushing religious morals and pushing veganism, which I've come to on my own as well. It can be exactly like that. That's not a diet, that's a cult.
But, I became vegan because I couldn't stand knowing the truth about where all my food came from and do nothing in response. It just wouldn't sit right. I could probably do more to help, but just like people who don't practice veganism, my priorities are elsewhere in my life. And that is okay. There is only so much a person can handle to think about.
so, tldr, veganism is credible, but many of the people who practice it are not. It's not a cure-all, but it's good. Just because the attitudes of the people who practice it can be pretty shitty, it doesn't negate the positive impacts it has on the environment or make it less credible.
I share most of your criticisms of the movement, and I hope that it improves to be more relaxed and accepting, and less bitter and rigid. It's painful for me to associate with my own movement because of the things you brought up, because generally I'm kind of morally grey, and I don't follow anybody else's morality but my own and I hate having it shoved down my throat. I am sure that it will when it grows larger, as that insecurity that some vegans feel will lessen with numbers. Sure, some will still be gross and mean, but I am certain it will improve. Same thing with the LGBT movement, and with the new light that has been shed on the mental illness recently. Activism is just ridiculous at times, that is all. Some people just like to turn themselves into living billboards, which I don't really appreciate, but there isn't much that I can do about it besides try not to become one myself, even though I do feel passionate about these issues like many other people.
No problem, I enjoy long explanations. also, some of the formatting of this was ruined for some reason when i posted it, so if certain parts get hard to read, sorry
Okay, so no good comes out of dumping waste into bodies of water. Hmm. What happened to using all that into fertilizer? Or better yet, consider using animal manure as an energy resource?
"Some fishermen have made an effort to create specialized nets that allow smaller fish that are unneeded to slip through the holes, but unfortunately, that isn't the majority of fishermen."
Sounds like a revolutionary net, especially if a majority of fishermen are not using it. You imply that individual fishermen modify their nets themselves in order to catch only specific fish, so why not the fishermen teach others how to make their nets the same way in order to propagate the use of the more eco-friendly net?
Lol, I actually want to eat bugs! Fuck it if they think it's disgusting, entomophagy is anything but new. Lolipops with ants, I'm willing to dare!
"Other animals do things that are beyond our understanding in the same way that art, philosophy and science are beyond their understandings.
It's how they have adapted. We evolved to become social, cooperative creatures, and the worm evolved to be a simple yet resilient life form. Does that make it inferior? No. It's species is still alive, isn't it?"
Same goes for plants. Pretty sure that it'd be over my imagination to see myself as a dandelion. Haha, they may not have brains to tell them what pain feels like, but ehh, they have lives too, so should we stop cutting our weeds and eating vegetables? (jk)
In a similar way, it reminds me of third-wave feminism. They say that their movement is for the good, yet a large number of them act like spoiled, self-righteous brats.
Hahaha, watch this video if you haven't already: youtu.be/DJ60PDUuwsI
In my town during Halloween, this lady gave out notes about getting healthy to fat kids and candy to skinny kids...
you don't make friends with salad 83
but most lazy americans could use a vegan diet. like theres been a raise in at home jobs like computer practitioners, my friends dad is one and he's gained A LOT of weight since he started
Factory farming... have you tried going to the local meat markets? Or do you know where there would be one? The local stuff is normally run by actual farmers or they get their meat from actual farmers. Though, I guess, depending on where you live there might not be any. Sorry, I know where you're coming from. As an animal welfare supporter, I don't like the factory farms either. Problem is, I don't have the money for alternative meat nor the health to stop eating the meat from there. And the protein providers for Vegans make me sick...
anyway, i said that it depends on your lifestyle if you have to eat meat or not. non active people can go vegan whenever. There is a vegan substitute for every required nutrient found in meat and milk and eggs.
but you know beans are a great provider for protein, they have as much protein in every 3 beans than a chunk of steak does! you may not like beans, but no one can't like bean burritos, or bean dip, or bean salad. so you are fine when it comes to protein! (unless you really dont like beans)
But yes, you see my point.